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	<title>Comments on: Revisiting Middle Earth: &#8220;The Two Towers&#8221;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/book-reviews/the-two-towers/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/book-reviews/the-two-towers/</link>
	<description>Science Fiction Novelist, Blogger, Web Programmer</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 21:39:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Eaton</title>
		<link>http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/book-reviews/the-two-towers/#comment-942</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Eaton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/?p=224#comment-942</guid>
		<description>No way. The 2 Towers is my all time favorite book. The dialogue between the characters is so eloquent. The plot is as detailed as middle earth in it's imagination.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No way. The 2 Towers is my all time favorite book. The dialogue between the characters is so eloquent. The plot is as detailed as middle earth in it&#8217;s imagination.</p>
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		<title>By: eruseldarine</title>
		<link>http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/book-reviews/the-two-towers/#comment-944</link>
		<dc:creator>eruseldarine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2007 22:49:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/?p=224#comment-944</guid>
		<description>tolkien is just like god</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>tolkien is just like god</p>
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		<title>By: Pat Logan</title>
		<link>http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/book-reviews/the-two-towers/#comment-937</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat Logan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2007 20:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/?p=224#comment-937</guid>
		<description>Tolkien grew up in a different time.

&lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romantic_friendship" rel="nofollow"&gt;Romantic friendships&lt;/a&gt; (as they called them) were common in the 19th and early 20th century, with people exchanging gifts, writing what we might call love letters, kissing hands (as Sam does to Frodo), all without any sexual overtones at all.

It does say more about us than it does them, sad to say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tolkien grew up in a different time.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romantic_friendship" rel="nofollow">Romantic friendships</a> (as they called them) were common in the 19th and early 20th century, with people exchanging gifts, writing what we might call love letters, kissing hands (as Sam does to Frodo), all without any sexual overtones at all.</p>
<p>It does say more about us than it does them, sad to say.</p>
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		<title>By: David Louis Edelman</title>
		<link>http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/book-reviews/the-two-towers/#comment-945</link>
		<dc:creator>David Louis Edelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 02:58:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/?p=224#comment-945</guid>
		<description>Cindy: I didn't really think of the gay overtones in a sexual way at all, and I didn't see any overt evidence that Tolkien was expressing them that way. (Though I would also argue that any platonic intimate heterosexual relationship &lt;em&gt;does&lt;/em&gt; automatically have sexual overtones. Whether that means the same thing goes for same-sex relationships, I'm not sure.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cindy: I didn&#8217;t really think of the gay overtones in a sexual way at all, and I didn&#8217;t see any overt evidence that Tolkien was expressing them that way. (Though I would also argue that any platonic intimate heterosexual relationship <em>does</em> automatically have sexual overtones. Whether that means the same thing goes for same-sex relationships, I&#8217;m not sure.)</p>
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		<title>By: Cindy Blank-Edelman</title>
		<link>http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/book-reviews/the-two-towers/#comment-936</link>
		<dc:creator>Cindy Blank-Edelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 00:56:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/?p=224#comment-936</guid>
		<description>I totally agree with you, David, about the gay overtones to Sam and Frodo's relationship. And "homosexual overtones" doesn't have to mean sexual overtones, unless any platonic intimate heterosexual relationship also automatically has sexual overtones. The point is that Frodo and Sam are two males who have an intimate relationship with each other (based on a power imbalance, but still).

Perhaps the telling point is that we can't conceive of two men having an intimate relationship without being gay and we can't conceive of a gay relationship without obsessing about gay sex.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally agree with you, David, about the gay overtones to Sam and Frodo&#8217;s relationship. And &#8220;homosexual overtones&#8221; doesn&#8217;t have to mean sexual overtones, unless any platonic intimate heterosexual relationship also automatically has sexual overtones. The point is that Frodo and Sam are two males who have an intimate relationship with each other (based on a power imbalance, but still).</p>
<p>Perhaps the telling point is that we can&#8217;t conceive of two men having an intimate relationship without being gay and we can&#8217;t conceive of a gay relationship without obsessing about gay sex.</p>
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		<title>By: Brent</title>
		<link>http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/book-reviews/the-two-towers/#comment-943</link>
		<dc:creator>Brent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2007 18:33:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/?p=224#comment-943</guid>
		<description>Jackson's portrayal of Faramir didn't bother me as much as the way that he treats Th&#233;oden, who has always been one of my favorite characters in the book.  Jackson created a character that cowered in Helm's Deep waiting for Saruman's army to come get him, whereas in the book Th&#233;oden actually leaves Edoras to fight the army and retreats to Helm's deep because it turns out to the the best place of defense.  All of the hand-wringing about not having any allies and this being the end of man drove me crazy.

As far as the homosexual overtones, it is interesting to read Doris Kearns Goodwin's Team of Rivals.  Many of the men of that time wrote of the love that they had for other men.  Goodwin says that it was common for those to enter intimate relationships with other men.  However, it is unlikely that there was any sexual aspect to those relationships.  Her conclusion is that our view of such relationships says as much about us as it does about them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jackson&#8217;s portrayal of Faramir didn&#8217;t bother me as much as the way that he treats Th&eacute;oden, who has always been one of my favorite characters in the book.  Jackson created a character that cowered in Helm&#8217;s Deep waiting for Saruman&#8217;s army to come get him, whereas in the book Th&eacute;oden actually leaves Edoras to fight the army and retreats to Helm&#8217;s deep because it turns out to the the best place of defense.  All of the hand-wringing about not having any allies and this being the end of man drove me crazy.</p>
<p>As far as the homosexual overtones, it is interesting to read Doris Kearns Goodwin&#8217;s Team of Rivals.  Many of the men of that time wrote of the love that they had for other men.  Goodwin says that it was common for those to enter intimate relationships with other men.  However, it is unlikely that there was any sexual aspect to those relationships.  Her conclusion is that our view of such relationships says as much about us as it does about them.</p>
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		<title>By: David Louis Edelman</title>
		<link>http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/book-reviews/the-two-towers/#comment-941</link>
		<dc:creator>David Louis Edelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2007 12:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/?p=224#comment-941</guid>
		<description>Interesting stuff, Kate... If your sister the medievalist ever gets a chance to add her two cents, I'd love to hear what she has to say too.

Funny enough, I'm finding that Sam isn't nearly as servile in the books as I remembered him. Sean Astin's version seems very close to how Tolkien portrayed him. Maybe that's just the films coloring my memory though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting stuff, Kate&#8230; If your sister the medievalist ever gets a chance to add her two cents, I&#8217;d love to hear what she has to say too.</p>
<p>Funny enough, I&#8217;m finding that Sam isn&#8217;t nearly as servile in the books as I remembered him. Sean Astin&#8217;s version seems very close to how Tolkien portrayed him. Maybe that&#8217;s just the films coloring my memory though.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/book-reviews/the-two-towers/#comment-940</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2007 01:46:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/?p=224#comment-940</guid>
		<description>I'm really enjoying reading this series of posts, Dave.  You have inspired me to  reread of Tolkien (once the book is finished and out the door - so - likely in about a month).

One thing to note about male love in Tolkien and etc is that (and I can't explain this as well as my sister the medievalist could) it is also a reflection of an earlier ethos.  In societies where marraige had to do with contractual economic and political alliances and sexual desire was just that, desire (not romantic love between theoretical equals), and furthermore in societies where men's and women's lives did not necessarily overlap on any kind of intellectual or emotional level, the strongest emotional attachment a man might have would likely be to other men.  Were there, at times, sexual relationships attached to these emotional bonds?  Sometimes, sure;  other times, not - but I think that it isn't in the context important.  We invest it with a sexuality that may or may not have been present and which would have seemed secondary in any case.

So I think we have to be careful about viewing some of these relationships through our modern lens.

Me, on the other hand, I never liked the Sam and Frodo relationship because Sam's servility really stuck in my craw.  I must admit (heretic!) that I preferred (mostly) how Jackson depicted Sam to how Tolkien did, just like I love how Jackson dealt with Boromir (Sean Bean helped a lot).  I have loads of problems with Jackson's movie, but it's clear to me he did read carefully and - as my sister the medievalist said after seeing Fellowship - Jackson unashamedly retained the strong male bonds that reflect the medieval ethos Tolkien was so familiar with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m really enjoying reading this series of posts, Dave.  You have inspired me to  reread of Tolkien (once the book is finished and out the door - so - likely in about a month).</p>
<p>One thing to note about male love in Tolkien and etc is that (and I can&#8217;t explain this as well as my sister the medievalist could) it is also a reflection of an earlier ethos.  In societies where marraige had to do with contractual economic and political alliances and sexual desire was just that, desire (not romantic love between theoretical equals), and furthermore in societies where men&#8217;s and women&#8217;s lives did not necessarily overlap on any kind of intellectual or emotional level, the strongest emotional attachment a man might have would likely be to other men.  Were there, at times, sexual relationships attached to these emotional bonds?  Sometimes, sure;  other times, not - but I think that it isn&#8217;t in the context important.  We invest it with a sexuality that may or may not have been present and which would have seemed secondary in any case.</p>
<p>So I think we have to be careful about viewing some of these relationships through our modern lens.</p>
<p>Me, on the other hand, I never liked the Sam and Frodo relationship because Sam&#8217;s servility really stuck in my craw.  I must admit (heretic!) that I preferred (mostly) how Jackson depicted Sam to how Tolkien did, just like I love how Jackson dealt with Boromir (Sean Bean helped a lot).  I have loads of problems with Jackson&#8217;s movie, but it&#8217;s clear to me he did read carefully and - as my sister the medievalist said after seeing Fellowship - Jackson unashamedly retained the strong male bonds that reflect the medieval ethos Tolkien was so familiar with.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/book-reviews/the-two-towers/#comment-939</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 May 2007 23:49:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/?p=224#comment-939</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;And if you’d never read the books, I don’t think you would have any cause to complain about the PJ version.&lt;/i&gt;

That certainly true. Having read it, however... ;)

I've enjoyed following along your Revisiting series, whatever disagreement I might have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>And if you’d never read the books, I don’t think you would have any cause to complain about the PJ version.</i></p>
<p>That certainly true. Having read it, however&#8230; <img src='http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
I&#8217;ve enjoyed following along your Revisiting series, whatever disagreement I might have.</p>
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		<title>By: David Louis Edelman</title>
		<link>http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/book-reviews/the-two-towers/#comment-935</link>
		<dc:creator>David Louis Edelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 May 2007 22:18:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/?p=224#comment-935</guid>
		<description>I'm not going to defend PJ's decisions about Faramir to the death, because I think the Osgiliath sequence is flawed too... But I don't think it's inconsistent with the rest of the films. PJ's Faramir is obviously a different character than Tolkien's Faramir. And if you'd never read the books, I don't think you would have any cause to complain about the PJ version. He's a very strong character in the film, and well acted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not going to defend PJ&#8217;s decisions about Faramir to the death, because I think the Osgiliath sequence is flawed too&#8230; But I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s inconsistent with the rest of the films. PJ&#8217;s Faramir is obviously a different character than Tolkien&#8217;s Faramir. And if you&#8217;d never read the books, I don&#8217;t think you would have any cause to complain about the PJ version. He&#8217;s a very strong character in the film, and well acted.</p>
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