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	<title>Comments on: Whatta Fiasco&#8230; The Book&#8217;s Got a Glossary!</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/fantasy/whatta-fiasco-glossary/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/fantasy/whatta-fiasco-glossary/</link>
	<description>Science Fiction Novelist, Blogger, Web Programmer</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 16:05:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Edward Einhorn</title>
		<link>http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/fantasy/whatta-fiasco-glossary/#comment-2836</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward Einhorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 04:42:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/?p=1187#comment-2836</guid>
		<description>I personally love glossaries and maps and such, but only when I love the book.  I think the reaction against them comes from the writers who become so enamored of Tolkien (or another favorite writer who uses those techniques, but the worst offenders do see to be Tolkien-ists) that they lose sight of the fact that even Tolkien was using this as a backdrop for a story, not a pure end in itself.  The best science fiction and fantasy comments on our world of course, and when it comments on itself or the obscure minutia rattling around in an obsessed writer's brain it has limited interest for those not equally obsessed.  Tolkien's strength, of course, was that his story was strong enough to make a number of people equally obsessed.  I say this as one who, in junior high school, with the help of my friend Doug Barre, came up with maps and glossaries of our own for a world in which we never actually managed to set a full story.

I still have them, and most of one story that went with them....some day...

All that being said, when the book draws me in, I always am glad that there's a glossary.  And I love a good map.  Really, for a great map, it can stand on its own as a work of art.  I just saw a huge exhibition of maps of all types.  Amazing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I personally love glossaries and maps and such, but only when I love the book.  I think the reaction against them comes from the writers who become so enamored of Tolkien (or another favorite writer who uses those techniques, but the worst offenders do see to be Tolkien-ists) that they lose sight of the fact that even Tolkien was using this as a backdrop for a story, not a pure end in itself.  The best science fiction and fantasy comments on our world of course, and when it comments on itself or the obscure minutia rattling around in an obsessed writer&#8217;s brain it has limited interest for those not equally obsessed.  Tolkien&#8217;s strength, of course, was that his story was strong enough to make a number of people equally obsessed.  I say this as one who, in junior high school, with the help of my friend Doug Barre, came up with maps and glossaries of our own for a world in which we never actually managed to set a full story.</p>
<p>I still have them, and most of one story that went with them&#8230;.some day&#8230;</p>
<p>All that being said, when the book draws me in, I always am glad that there&#8217;s a glossary.  And I love a good map.  Really, for a great map, it can stand on its own as a work of art.  I just saw a huge exhibition of maps of all types.  Amazing.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Sherry</title>
		<link>http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/fantasy/whatta-fiasco-glossary/#comment-2824</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Sherry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 16:52:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/?p=1187#comment-2824</guid>
		<description>My complaint is that Robert Jordan, at some point, stopped having in depth glossaries.  The ones in the earlier books were much better than the glossaries by Book 6 or 7.

It isn't that readers are too stupid to remember everything, but sometimes it is nice to have a brief refresher on who exactly a character or unfamiliar term is.  

Plus, nothing says we *have* to read the glossary.  Most of the time I won't read the glossary, but I think it is way cool that some authors take the time to put in a glossary and an appendix for those readers who just want a little bit more detail than was necessary to tell the story.  

I figure that you sold the novel on the strength of the story, and not so much on the glossary.  It's like a bonus feature on a DVD.  You don't *need* it, but it's nice to have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My complaint is that Robert Jordan, at some point, stopped having in depth glossaries.  The ones in the earlier books were much better than the glossaries by Book 6 or 7.</p>
<p>It isn&#8217;t that readers are too stupid to remember everything, but sometimes it is nice to have a brief refresher on who exactly a character or unfamiliar term is.  </p>
<p>Plus, nothing says we *have* to read the glossary.  Most of the time I won&#8217;t read the glossary, but I think it is way cool that some authors take the time to put in a glossary and an appendix for those readers who just want a little bit more detail than was necessary to tell the story.  </p>
<p>I figure that you sold the novel on the strength of the story, and not so much on the glossary.  It&#8217;s like a bonus feature on a DVD.  You don&#8217;t *need* it, but it&#8217;s nice to have.</p>
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		<title>By: tobias buckell</title>
		<link>http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/fantasy/whatta-fiasco-glossary/#comment-2705</link>
		<dc:creator>tobias buckell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 22:07:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/?p=1187#comment-2705</guid>
		<description>Dude, I didn't have a glossary in Crystal Rain, and one reader somewhere complained about the fact that Crystal Rain had a glossary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dude, I didn&#8217;t have a glossary in Crystal Rain, and one reader somewhere complained about the fact that Crystal Rain had a glossary.</p>
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		<title>By: April IGMS book reviews up at Tobias Buckell Online</title>
		<link>http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/fantasy/whatta-fiasco-glossary/#comment-2704</link>
		<dc:creator>April IGMS book reviews up at Tobias Buckell Online</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 22:06:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/?p=1187#comment-2704</guid>
		<description>[...] David Edelman, Matter has a big old glossary in the back, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s hurt Banks. Share and Enjoy:These icons link to social [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] David Edelman, Matter has a big old glossary in the back, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s hurt Banks. Share and Enjoy:These icons link to social [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John League</title>
		<link>http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/fantasy/whatta-fiasco-glossary/#comment-2700</link>
		<dc:creator>John League</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 15:47:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/?p=1187#comment-2700</guid>
		<description>I would have to think that engaged and well-read folks should know that the presence of lengthy glossaries or appendices is, as you say, only a "sign" of potential shortcomings in the book. It's what the author does with the material that counts. In most fantasy novels, the ubiquitous map is often a mere gesture to reader expectations. Its presence is neither good nor bad, and often unnecessary. Any science fiction novel that deliberately incorporates jargon begs for a glossary, be it a single page of acronyms or something more involved. Even Agatha Christie prefaced her books with long lists of &lt;i&gt;dramatis personae&lt;/i&gt;. Is this offputting, too? 

Besides, if the book--that is, the actual text of the novel--is done well, I find myself poring over the extra stuff because I wish there was more of that story to read.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would have to think that engaged and well-read folks should know that the presence of lengthy glossaries or appendices is, as you say, only a &#8220;sign&#8221; of potential shortcomings in the book. It&#8217;s what the author does with the material that counts. In most fantasy novels, the ubiquitous map is often a mere gesture to reader expectations. Its presence is neither good nor bad, and often unnecessary. Any science fiction novel that deliberately incorporates jargon begs for a glossary, be it a single page of acronyms or something more involved. Even Agatha Christie prefaced her books with long lists of <i>dramatis personae</i>. Is this offputting, too? </p>
<p>Besides, if the book&#8211;that is, the actual text of the novel&#8211;is done well, I find myself poring over the extra stuff because I wish there was more of that story to read.</p>
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		<title>By: Yaron</title>
		<link>http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/fantasy/whatta-fiasco-glossary/#comment-2697</link>
		<dc:creator>Yaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 13:10:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/?p=1187#comment-2697</guid>
		<description>I don't think glossaries are bad by themselves. The only issue with them is when the author is not able (or just didn't bother) to explain everything through the narrative.

As long as everything is explained, or can be understood, by reading the actual story, the glossary is a good thing.
It can provide a quick reference for a reader who hadn't paid attention to something that appeared a minor point at first glance, or help with the main incomprehensibilities after taking a long break and then resuming the book.

Just as long as the glossary isn't, as Cindy wrote in the previous comment, necessary. When the author uses a term in a book, without explaining it, and just expects readers to go look for it in the glossary, &lt;i&gt;that&lt;/i&gt;'s bad. The same when the term is explained briefly in the story, and the glossary just expands on it, but the narrative requires knowing the extra stuff in order to make sense.

As for maps, well, I rarely pay attention to them, but I also don't quite see why they should be considered harmful.
The maps are only a problem when they don't match the plot. But that rarely happens. (though, unfortunately, not never. Cue protagonists crossing a huge continent on foot in a week, then spending a gruelling three months or so making their way back to a city in the middle of the road, or maybe just a couple of miles to the north.)

Generally maps would only be an issue if the book involve a lot of travel, but the travel is only described by stating that someone left city X and reached city Y in country Z some time later. If you have a lot of places in the story, but nothing in the story to connect them, a map can help to understand how the world looks like.
But if a map is &lt;i&gt;needed&lt;/i&gt; for this, that can indicate bad writing. (Teleportation technology excluded. In that case we don't need the travel stories. Though a little geographical, political, and socio-economic background details may still be in order)

Or, well, most (or a lot of) fantasy books, good or bad, include a map. Sometimes it almost feels like a pre-requisite. You hardly ever see maps in pure SF books, and they're right there in almost every fantasy.
So if the reviewer thought there are more second-rate fantasy books than first-rate one, the statement can make sense, without actually indicating that he thinks the maps themselves are a problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think glossaries are bad by themselves. The only issue with them is when the author is not able (or just didn&#8217;t bother) to explain everything through the narrative.</p>
<p>As long as everything is explained, or can be understood, by reading the actual story, the glossary is a good thing.<br />
It can provide a quick reference for a reader who hadn&#8217;t paid attention to something that appeared a minor point at first glance, or help with the main incomprehensibilities after taking a long break and then resuming the book.</p>
<p>Just as long as the glossary isn&#8217;t, as Cindy wrote in the previous comment, necessary. When the author uses a term in a book, without explaining it, and just expects readers to go look for it in the glossary, <i>that</i>&#8217;s bad. The same when the term is explained briefly in the story, and the glossary just expands on it, but the narrative requires knowing the extra stuff in order to make sense.</p>
<p>As for maps, well, I rarely pay attention to them, but I also don&#8217;t quite see why they should be considered harmful.<br />
The maps are only a problem when they don&#8217;t match the plot. But that rarely happens. (though, unfortunately, not never. Cue protagonists crossing a huge continent on foot in a week, then spending a gruelling three months or so making their way back to a city in the middle of the road, or maybe just a couple of miles to the north.)</p>
<p>Generally maps would only be an issue if the book involve a lot of travel, but the travel is only described by stating that someone left city X and reached city Y in country Z some time later. If you have a lot of places in the story, but nothing in the story to connect them, a map can help to understand how the world looks like.<br />
But if a map is <i>needed</i> for this, that can indicate bad writing. (Teleportation technology excluded. In that case we don&#8217;t need the travel stories. Though a little geographical, political, and socio-economic background details may still be in order)</p>
<p>Or, well, most (or a lot of) fantasy books, good or bad, include a map. Sometimes it almost feels like a pre-requisite. You hardly ever see maps in pure SF books, and they&#8217;re right there in almost every fantasy.<br />
So if the reviewer thought there are more second-rate fantasy books than first-rate one, the statement can make sense, without actually indicating that he thinks the maps themselves are a problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Cindy</title>
		<link>http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/fantasy/whatta-fiasco-glossary/#comment-2680</link>
		<dc:creator>Cindy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 03:14:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/?p=1187#comment-2680</guid>
		<description>The only possible objection I would add is that I find it really irritating when I don't realize there is a glossary or appendix until I get to them at the end of the book. Just when I think that there are 40 more pages of the plot, the book ends and I'm left feeling cheated. That being said, I have read Infoquake many times and never needed to look at the glossaries. I did glance at the extra material, but I'm not one to delve in in that way. I think that glossaries and appendices and timelines are good to *add* to one's enjoyment of the book, but the author needs to be sure that they aren't *necessary* to the enjoyment. I think you did that well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only possible objection I would add is that I find it really irritating when I don&#8217;t realize there is a glossary or appendix until I get to them at the end of the book. Just when I think that there are 40 more pages of the plot, the book ends and I&#8217;m left feeling cheated. That being said, I have read Infoquake many times and never needed to look at the glossaries. I did glance at the extra material, but I&#8217;m not one to delve in in that way. I think that glossaries and appendices and timelines are good to *add* to one&#8217;s enjoyment of the book, but the author needs to be sure that they aren&#8217;t *necessary* to the enjoyment. I think you did that well.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Nolin</title>
		<link>http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/fantasy/whatta-fiasco-glossary/#comment-2677</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Nolin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 00:08:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.davidlouisedelman.com/?p=1187#comment-2677</guid>
		<description>I don't get the objection at all, nor the comment inferring that maps are indicative of second-rate fantasy. That I do not get at all. I love glossaries, addendums, maps...I have no problem with any of it. Maps are too often left out, in my opinion. You need to see the world being created as a graphic, sometimes. Words are not enough. The reviewer in question seems to have a rather narrow view of what a novel should be. Wonder what he'd make of "Infinite Jest", with it's thousands of footnotes. Or "The Invention of Hugo Cabret", which has 150 full-page illustrations that tell large parts of the story INSTEAD of using words. (Wonderful book that is, btw.) Maps and glossaries are always welcome, in my book. Or your book, as the case may be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t get the objection at all, nor the comment inferring that maps are indicative of second-rate fantasy. That I do not get at all. I love glossaries, addendums, maps&#8230;I have no problem with any of it. Maps are too often left out, in my opinion. You need to see the world being created as a graphic, sometimes. Words are not enough. The reviewer in question seems to have a rather narrow view of what a novel should be. Wonder what he&#8217;d make of &#8220;Infinite Jest&#8221;, with it&#8217;s thousands of footnotes. Or &#8220;The Invention of Hugo Cabret&#8221;, which has 150 full-page illustrations that tell large parts of the story INSTEAD of using words. (Wonderful book that is, btw.) Maps and glossaries are always welcome, in my book. Or your book, as the case may be.</p>
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